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Eu referendum.

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OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Eu referendum.
12th May 2016 at 12:50PM
Sam that is pale reflection of what I said. My point was that there are many views as to what the plan would or should be after Brexit, not one single vision. In exactly the same way, there are a plethora of views on what our place in the EU should be if we remain.

The idea that there will be no attempt to get Britain into any of things we do not wish to be involved in is convenient but naive. All the defence experts that have entered into the debate pretty much agree that an EU army would be effectively redundant without UK participation. Indeed ever-closer union is not going to be achieved without all member buy in. Yes we are out of Schengen - fortunately we have a sizeable body of water between us and the mainland so I expect that helps considerably. However, we still have immigration levels that we have no control over and accept an enormous amount of asylum seekers on top of that.

Even if the UK was to reject a major treaty change in a referendum, I do not trust the EU bureaucracy to respect the result. You only have to look at the shocking exercise in democracy that was the Lisbon Treaty/EU Constitution.
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Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
12th May 2016 at 12:53PM, Edit: 12th May 2016 at 2:58PM by Serenity
I do know what you mean Sam. As one of those voters who at the moment are voting to leave, it's hard to say what will be the future outside the EU.

This is why I felt that more information should have been given my the goverment to the outline as well the positives if we chose to leave the EU.

I'v listened to in particular what TwistedBanana had to say and all their points are perfectly right. There are lots of good things that being in the EU has brought about.

But I do feel that the debate at the moment is aimed solely at the future if we stay. Which doesn't really give the public an all round picture to decide from.

I would have liked to have seen a kind of tick list. One that clearly outlining the main issues for and against of leaving or staying in the EU.

Instead all we've really had is a leaflet outling all the advantages of staying but nothing about the advantages of leaving. And I'm sure that there's as many.

As for the dreamers Sam, well nearly half the voters so far are wanting to leave the EU, so there must be a growing realism that Britian will florist outside of the EU.

And as for the EU leave campaigner having no 5 year future plan. Well I suppose it's hard to give a cadt iron plan as no other country has ever left the EU before.

But let's face it we managed before as a nation and I can't honestly believe even with all of the scaremongering that's been going on that we would suddenly fail as a nation to trade with other countries after the EU.

But unfortunately once again the main issues that people want to know about like will immigration be reduced if we leave the EU, how can the goverment build houses fast enough to house our own citizens and thousands of immigrants.

All such issues have not been debated properly and once again the whole EU debate has been alllowed to be turned into yet another political fiaso with politic undercurrents totally confusing the real important issues that should now be being discussed.

But the main point for me Sam for leaving is the Freedom of movement within the EU that disables britian from planning for the future. And whilst you and TwistedBanana have made some positive interesting points as to why we should stay, neither of you have said how are we going to be able to deal with mass immigration over the coming years. Our infustructure cannot cope we see how the Nhs can't cope, lack of school places for pupils, lack of affordable houses, These problems arnt getting better there getting much worse.

We can't cope now Sam with immigration as it stands, so as for a 5 year plan what's the stay in EU voters 5 year plan on how to tackle these issues.

That plan for the future I feel would probably be more vague...

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sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
12th May 2016 at 2:45PM
Oliver and Serenity; Yes I am an unashamed Remainer, and in my late 70s having worked in the private and public sectors at quite senior levels I do not think I am naive. Let me outline where I stand:
Immigration;
What border contols will we impose against EU citizens when we leave? Lets assume they are the same as we now impose on non EU citizens (Leave do not know or have not said). Migration Watch has estimated that will reduce EU migration by 100000 per year, mostly young, active, tax paying workers, in agriculture, hospitality, domestic services, and health and care. They do jobs British people will not do. Being young and fit, they make no demands on the NHS (9% of NHS doctors are from the EU), they are not paid enough to compete in the housing market, they tend to leave families behind. Even if their families come, because they are economically active, they contribute to the services they use. Now if we go down the route of imposing visa controls against EU citizens they will put visa controls on us. Personally, I value being able to freely move about the continent: but that is for pleasure - think of the hassle businesses will face as they try to move people about from Frankfurt to Paris to Rome. I am old enough to remember the forties when we absorbed refugees from Poland, Hungary, the Ukraine, and other eastern countries. They have contributed to this country and their grandchildren still do. I despair of the defeatism of the 'lets pull up the drawbridge mentality'. I say lets welcome them.
EU future;
I do not want to repeat what I said in my last post. But we have complete control of our destiny in Europe. It will depend upon the British Government and Parliament to exercise our veto or not. If we remain, the future EU is pretty clear to me I do not see a plethora of scenarios, I think it is pretty clear. I finish with a question: what in your personal or family life will change for the better if we leave, what will change for the worse if we remain?
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OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Eu referendum.
12th May 2016 at 2:59PM
Sam - unfortunately to simply argue that the UK is protected by our own parliament and government against further integration is in my opinion either naive or an attempt to dupe the people of this country. It completely ignores a whole litany of experiences to the contrary. The history of the European Union directly contradicts your argument.

More to the point, the central argument to the Remain campaign is essentially "it's better to be inside the tent, influencing decisions". The fact that we end up outside of Schengen, the EU army, currency union etc means we are not influencing decision making but still heavily exposed to the effects of those policies.

Then we again come to a referendum on any of the above where massive corporations and numerous elements of the liberal cosmopolitan set tell us "we must vote to join or for X otherwise Britain will be [insert cliche Brexit myth here]".

The EU is an evolutionary project - moving towards closer union. It is simply inconceivable that a behemoth as unwilling as it is to reform or change, would treat the democratic will of one member state with any respect. Again, history supports this.
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OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Eu referendum.
12th May 2016 at 3:03PM
Furthermore, you assume that taking control of our immigration policy means we stop letting migrants in. This is total nonsense and cheapens the debate. A sensible discussion about immigration is not about unbridled mass migration on one hand and isolationism on another.

Surely the people of the democratic franchise should exercise control over their country's immigration policy? Irrespective of whether you believe in more or less migration, sovereignty over the UK's borders is a good in and of itself.
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sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
12th May 2016 at 3:51PM
Wow, Oliver are you getting rattled? Let me take your points seriatim:

1] Could you give me one example of further integration against the will of the UK Government and Parliament?
2] Since we are not in the EZ they will integrate further, but that does not mean we cannot exercise influence on a host of other matters,
3]Conspiracy theory,
4] Can you quote where I say the assumption is to stop all migration? On the contrary, I suggest that the same policy would be applied to both EU and non EU citizens. You are getting indignant at a straw man of your own invention.
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OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Eu referendum.
12th May 2016 at 4:57PM
Sam no one is getting rattled but I notice that you have failed to actually respond to my points.

Re immigration you used the term "pulling up the drawbridge" and then raised this issue about causing gaps in the labour market.

No one is arguing that governments (and by association Parliament) have not been complicit in the ceding of power and sovereignty to Brussels - that does not make it any more justified. A referendum was promised on the far reaching changes brought in for the EU constitution - this was cancelled when they re branded it to the Lisbon Treaty. In other countries, they simply had another referendum or just ignored the popular vote.

It isn't a conspiracy - it's a fact. The Government, a vast bloc of corporate wealth and the unions are all backing the remain campaign and using the same arguments against Brexit that were used in favour of joining the euro. The exact same thing would happen on a future referendum on any new treaty. The same myths would be popularised and the vested interests at the heart of the European project would peddle them.

The issue and extent to which we are involved in EU projects completely blows apart the argument that we have more power inside the EU. We cannot as one member state expect to direct European policy when the rest of Europe is moving towards closer integration.

The EU is not static, it evolves year by year and they will not tolerate Britain being half-heartedly in. We are having a referendum just on our membership of the EU as it is today but also on what the EU looks like and the nature of our relationship for another generation or more.
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sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
12th May 2016 at 6:48PM
Oliver: yes I used that term, it was in parentheses to make clear it was a term of art, to illustrate the state fo mind of most leavers. However, if I am wrong can you tell me leaver policy on border controls? Will EU migrants face the same border controls that non EU migrants now face or will they be different - stronger or weaker? No answer?
Whatever the genesis of the Lisbon treaty, it was signed by the UK PM and approved by the UK Parliament. Leavers claim sovereignty - this was Parliamentary sovereignty in action - do not blame the EU. The rest of your post is assertion without evidence, I notice you did not answer my last question.
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Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
12th May 2016 at 10:14PM
Can you tell me Sam how are we going to control mass immigration whilst remaining within the EU freedom of movement, especially with countries like Turkey set to be included. Whatevers been said on here there is no guarantee that Turkey will not join. So what then.

How will we then pay for the resources needed to accommodate the extra nhs patient places, extra schools places, extra housing. We're not coping now, So how will we be expected to cope in the future if the numbers keep increasing.

Are we just meant to use our imagination and guess when it comes to how many people from within the EU will want to come to Britian in the future, and then another guess and try to plan an infustructure that will be able to cope, baised on random guess work.

Seems like that's what happening at the moment Sam. The immigration figures that were first given to us were way out and far higher than first expected. And as you know Sam there's lots of statistics and evidence to support this.

So with this in mind how can we ever hope to be able to plan for the future of Britian regarding housing,schools,and our nhs without leaving the EU first.


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Goggins
Re: Eu referendum.
12th May 2016 at 10:41PM
This has already been explained to you: EU migrants tend to be economically active - paying taxes - but not requiring much in the way of health care or schools because they tend to be young and childless.
If you feel the NHS is crumbling and schools bursting then perhaps, rather than blaming foreigners, you should consider the role that the UK state has in planning the provision of services. For example, the UK birth rate has gone up and down over the last 70 years and schools have had to cope. If we can't cope now then perhaps the blame lies closer to home.
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