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Poor old William Wragg

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Mozza
Townsperson

Mozza
Re: Poor old William Wragg
12th February 2016 at 4:49PM
Artie_Fufkin Wrote:

Mozza Wrote:

You're a Tory. You support what they do, and speak for their actions. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a right wing Tory duck.

The whiny left wingers thing is the Tory adult version of the playground wandering away shouting "I'm not listening, I'm not listening"


I love being told what I am and what to think, put thing sin little boxes and it makes life so much easier.

I've been a member of all the main parties but only when at university and to be honest, I only did so to pull girls and get freebies. Since, I've never been a member and to be honest, I think anyone who is a member is somewhat strange.

If you really want to categorise me, I suppose of closest to being an Orange book liberal. The state should be there to help those who can't and where possible, only help them with a hand up, not live their lives. At the same time, i think individuals (within reason) should be able to do what they want as long as they take full responsibility for their actions.

Now, back to the thread. I really can't see why Wragg is being slagged off for what is a very sensible decision.

I really think your political allegiance is getting in the way of rational thought


A) I beleive it was you that put me in the box initially. But, I think you probably know that deep down.

B) I find it hard to beleive you were successful in pulling girls.

Anyway, you're right, back to William and his entitlement.

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Mozza
Townsperson

Mozza
Re: Poor old William Wragg
12th February 2016 at 4:53PM
TwistedBanana Wrote:

OliverJohnstone Wrote:

Oh come on Twisted - look at the factors at play here. The UK economy has been declared as the least exposed to another recession out of the developed economies. The vast majority of economic commentators believe that it is external issues in other economies that are the biggest risk to the UK economy - not least the Eurozone economies like France that has had a Socialist President for a good few years now.

Surely we cannot listen to expert opinion and in some cases, unarguable facts and judge that Osbourne's economic policies have failed in any way. I am not saying it is perfect but then find me an economic policy that is.

The issues in the NHS were inevitable - we kept feeding ourselves the delusion over the last 70 years that we could continue to pay for universal healthcare as it became more complex and the population became much much older. I am not suggesting we do away with the universal free healthcare aspect but bottom line, unless we have a serious grown up debate about raising serious revenue from somewhere then the whole project will be in dire straits.

I don't think the Conservative Government is in a position to have that debate at the moment - it has been a mammoth task to secure the investment required just to fund the plan until the next decade. Equally I think that the rest of our political class are similarly unprepared. There is a fanatical, semi religious commitment to the NHS which can be positive but often also blinds people to the reality of "where does the extra revenue continue to come from?"



Olly, You accept the argument that the biggest threat to the UK economy is from outside sources (Despite the fact we are stagnant as a country due to the ridiculous austerity measures)would you then accept that the issues with the economy in the latter years of the Labour government were also caused by external factors? after all it wasn't Gordon Brown who took Greece down, who put America into recession, who screwed up the Spanish economy - surely it is the Tories who want it both ways as you accuse me of?

Lets not forget that the Labour government spent Billions to bail RBS out, it had no choice, RBS has gradually paid back the money to start to take it out of public hands (thus providing a cash boost to the current purse string holders)

let me remind you that Osborne backed every piece of Labour's spending, up until 2008 when he suddenly slunk back into the shadows

GDP per head is still lower than it was before the Lehman crash
His promises to get rid of the deficit in one parliament have proven to be just tosh
You mention France - the nation whos productivity is 30% higher than ours


As for the health service - you use words like "fanatical" and "semi-religious" - these are the words of the Right, the sort of words used for 60 years by the Right to dismiss the supporters of something they have always despised.

Of course the health service can work, it is ridiculous to claim otherwise. Lets have a look at the biggest drains on the Health service, things like contracts awarded to companies that aren't offering the best packages but whos faces fit based on connections higher up. Lets look at how much it costs to train a nurse - roughly £80,000 per year for three years, only to see that newly qualified nurse go over to other private sector that still has minimal investment in training, thus loses the NHS a resource that has cost them just short of £250,000.00. Lets look at the many other areas that the Private Health Service is a parasite on the National Health Service. I have no objection with a Private Service that offers a bit above the norm but it shouldn't be parasitical to the NHS.

Lets look at the ridiculous amount of middle management still festering in well paid jobs, jobs that don't really exist while senior consultants and doctors wishes and advice is ignored for fear of it being too sensible and maybe making the Health service more efficient and then scuppering the plan to get rid of it.

Lets look at the billions spent each-time a new party or a new health minister comes in and restructures. moves this department to there and that department to here - I suppose if it keeps them busy pushing pens then alls good.
It wasted money that has cost the Health Service, not the fact it has outgrown its pants.



This government is so good at spin now, I think they beleive that they can muscle anything through, and if they can't, they'll engineer the situation to their advantage.

I hope with all my heart that the public realise this next time...especially if we're looking down the barrel of another recession.. Be interesting to see them reverse their words from the last election and say it's down to world events....
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stukaville
Villager

stukaville
Re: Poor old William Wragg
12th February 2016 at 8:47PM, Edit: 12th February 2016 at 8:48PM by stukaville
OliverJohnstone Wrote:


The issues in the NHS were inevitable - we kept feeding ourselves the delusion over the last 70 years that we could continue to pay for universal healthcare as it became more complex and the population became much much older. I am not suggesting we do away with the universal free healthcare aspect but bottom line, unless we have a serious grown up debate about raising serious revenue from somewhere then the whole project will be in dire straits.

I don't think the Conservative Government is in a position to have that debate at the moment - it has been a mammoth task to secure the investment required just to fund the plan until the next decade. Equally I think that the rest of our political class are similarly unprepared. There is a fanatical, semi religious commitment to the NHS which can be positive but often also blinds people to the reality of "where does the extra revenue continue to come from?"




I disagree, the issues within the NHS were not inevitable. First we had Labour creating over 200 billion debt with PFI agreements and then the bank bailouts that clocked up another 500 billion to 1 trillion in debt. Then we had the Tory/Liberal coalition awarding around 38% of NHS contracts to private for profit health companies for a number of years. Then we had both Labour and the COalition and conservatives letting huge companies off billions in tax. Add to that the billions wasted on trident and membership of the EU and we could have a fully funded NHS.
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TwistedBanana
Townsperson

TwistedBanana
Re: Poor old William Wragg
12th February 2016 at 11:46PM
stukaville Wrote:

OliverJohnstone Wrote:


The issues in the NHS were inevitable - we kept feeding ourselves the delusion over the last 70 years that we could continue to pay for universal healthcare as it became more complex and the population became much much older. I am not suggesting we do away with the universal free healthcare aspect but bottom line, unless we have a serious grown up debate about raising serious revenue from somewhere then the whole project will be in dire straits.

I don't think the Conservative Government is in a position to have that debate at the moment - it has been a mammoth task to secure the investment required just to fund the plan until the next decade. Equally I think that the rest of our political class are similarly unprepared. There is a fanatical, semi religious commitment to the NHS which can be positive but often also blinds people to the reality of "where does the extra revenue continue to come from?"




I disagree, the issues within the NHS were not inevitable. First we had Labour creating over 200 billion debt with PFI agreements and then the bank bailouts that clocked up another 500 billion to 1 trillion in debt. Then we had the Tory/Liberal coalition awarding around 38% of NHS contracts to private for profit health companies for a number of years. Then we had both Labour and the COalition and conservatives letting huge companies off billions in tax. Add to that the billions wasted on trident and membership of the EU and we could have a fully funded NHS.


Lets not forget that PFI's were a Tory initiative and took hold massively before the "New" Labour elective carried it on, against the wishes of the left wing few. But hey ho, shit happens.

Cant argue with the rest of your points though SV

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Artie_Fufkin
Villager

Artie_Fufkin
Re: Poor old William Wragg
13th February 2016 at 5:38PM
OliverJohnstone Wrote:

Oh come on Twisted - look at the factors at play here. The UK economy has been declared as the least exposed to another recession out of the developed economies. The vast majority of economic commentators believe that it is external issues in other economies that are the biggest risk to the UK economy - not least the Eurozone economies like France that has had a Socialist President for a good few years now.

Surely we cannot listen to expert opinion and in some cases, unarguable facts and judge that Osbourne's economic policies have failed in any way. I am not saying it is perfect but then find me an economic policy that is.

The issues in the NHS were inevitable - we kept feeding ourselves the delusion over the last 70 years that we could continue to pay for universal healthcare as it became more complex and the population became much much older. I am not suggesting we do away with the universal free healthcare aspect but bottom line, unless we have a serious grown up debate about raising serious revenue from somewhere then the whole project will be in dire straits.

I don't think the Conservative Government is in a position to have that debate at the moment - it has been a mammoth task to secure the investment required just to fund the plan until the next decade. Equally I think that the rest of our political class are similarly unprepared. There is a fanatical, semi religious commitment to the NHS which can be positive but often also blinds people to the reality of "where does the extra revenue continue to come from?"




I was asked at Heaton Moor today to sign a petition to basically keep the old closed shop supplying the NHS services. This quote from Olly is so true:
OliverJohnstone Wrote:

There is a fanatical, semi religious commitment to the NHS which can be positive but often also blinds people to the reality of "where does the extra revenue continue to come from?"


I explained that I couldn't sign as I didn;t agree. I felt that removing politics from hte NHS was exactly wat was required and the NHS MUST be able to source the best value for money for services. It was as if I'd done an Adam Johnson there an then, supposedly peace loving individuals got quite hostile.

There needs to be a de-politicising of the NHS debate, strategy needs to be free of Union involvement or political involvement. I'd rather all parties agree that the current budget will be met and increased year on year at 3% and allow the NHS separately deal with it.
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stukaville
Villager

stukaville
Re: Poor old William Wragg
13th February 2016 at 8:17PM

There is no 'old closed shop' supplying the NHS with services. The NHS IS the service provider. Sure the NHS has a budget to spend but its used to buy drugs and equipment.

I took my father to a hospital appointment at Stepping Hill last week. He needed further eye tests which Stepping Hill used to carryout, but now the tests have been outsourced to a Company called Optegra. The Companies are profit driven entities who aim to provide good dividends for their investors. You don't save the tax payer money by using NHS money to buy in services the NHS can provide for itself. The NHS is not there to make a profit, Optegra and other companies like it, are. Buying in services is double speak for privatisation via the back door.
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Artie_Fufkin
Villager

Artie_Fufkin
Re: Poor old William Wragg
13th February 2016 at 8:55PM
stukaville Wrote:


There is no 'old closed shop' supplying the NHS with services. The NHS IS the service provider. Sure the NHS has a budget to spend but its used to buy drugs and equipment.

I took my father to a hospital appointment at Stepping Hill last week. He needed further eye tests which Stepping Hill used to carryout, but now the tests have been outsourced to a Company called Optegra. The Companies are profit driven entities who aim to provide good dividends for their investors. You don't save the tax payer money by using NHS money to buy in services the NHS can provide for itself. The NHS is not there to make a profit, Optegra and other companies like it, are. Buying in services is double speak for privatisation via the back door.


Does it matter. Let's assume it works out cheaper, otherwise the NHS would not choose it over an in-house solution. Your father was happy with the job done?

My business supplies the NHS with clean room audio. We compete with a few other businesses and we also supply Germany, France, Russia and others. The NHS can make the stuff themselves but to be honest, why bother, it will not be as good as ours and cost more. Why should this not apply to medical services?

The thing is, when it's our own money, we behave differently. When my wife's friend wanted to fix her wonky teeth and the work wasn't available on the NHS, she didn't book her NHS doctor to do the private work, she was off to Budepest where they are better at cosmetic dentistry than here and 1/4 of the price. The NHS has to operate in a similar way, get the best deal for us the tax-payer
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Jenny
Villager

Jenny
Re: Poor old William Wragg
14th February 2016 at 6:01PM
Yet more proof that the Tories live in a bubble and have no idea how the majority of the country live.

"Ohhhh I'm only earning 75k a year, I couldn't possibly afford to live in the mansion that I think I deserve yet"

My heart bleeds for him, it really really does, it must be such a hard hard life that he lives (Just for the avoidance of doubt, sarcasm). But hey, the people of HG obviously thought that it was a good idea to vote this <insert word of your choice here> in?
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Dialstone
Villager

Dialstone
Re: Poor old William Wragg
15th February 2016 at 8:47AM
If this 75k is so enviable, surely any eligible person is entitled to go after such a post, and then buy the house they can afford?
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stukaville
Villager

stukaville
Re: Poor old William Wragg
16th February 2016 at 2:58PM, Edit: 16th February 2016 at 3:15PM by stukaville
Artie_Fufkin Wrote:


Does it matter. Let's assume it works out cheaper, otherwise the NHS would not choose it over an in-house solution. Your father was happy with the job done?

My business supplies the NHS with clean room audio. We compete with a few other businesses and we also supply Germany, France, Russia and others. The NHS can make the stuff themselves but to be honest, why bother, it will not be as good as ours and cost more. Why should this not apply to medical services?

The thing is, when it's our own money, we behave differently. When my wife's friend wanted to fix her wonky teeth and the work wasn't available on the NHS, she didn't book her NHS doctor to do the private work, she was off to Budepest where they are better at cosmetic dentistry than here and 1/4 of the price. The NHS has to operate in a similar way, get the best deal for us the tax-payer



Ofcourse it matters. Let's not assume it works out cheaper, lets follow simple logic here. Private companies exist to make a profit. The NHS is there to provide universal free health care. You cannot save money by introducing another layer of cost. Your own business is a poor example because you are providing the NHS with expertise that you wouldn't expect to be in the medical profession. Ive no problem with the NHS buying in I.T solutions if they decide they dont want their own I.T staff, but I'd fully expect it to have its own salaried heart specialists, audiologists all working for decent pay, not charging per patient.

If you were offering heart surgery I would expect the NHS to do the job cheaper because they are paying staff by the hour, where as you would be paying your staff by the hour plus charging the NHS/tax payer per operation, and looking to provide a return to your investors. Ive seen examples of surgeons being paid far more than what they earn with the NHS, operating on 'NHS patients' in private hospitals like Bupa to lower waiting times. Recuiting more staff is the answer, not paying the same staff three times more via BUPA and the like.

Your wife's friend is another poor example. That is cosmetic surgery and something the NHS was never intended for. By all means have companies provide services not covered by universal health care but lets not underfund the NHS to deliberately destroy it, then claim its broken and has to be changed.

I think I can see what is really happening here. The NHS is being deliberately underfunded
so services have to be reduced. Waiting times go up and the government tells us the NHS is no longer fit for purpose. Then private companies appear and the NHS is forced to spend money on operations etc because it has lost capacity and has been given targets it cannot meet.

When the NHS has been sufficiently weakened I can see national insurance being lowered and people being encouraged to take out private medical insurance. The NHS will end up being a second rate dumping ground for costly patients the private sector doesn't want to know unless they can pay. As for my dad, he needs further treatment and was happy enough with his Optegra appointment but the service used to be provided in Stepping Hill 2 miles from him. Now he has to go to Manchester 7 miles away. Common sense tells me that Optegra will end up costing more. Tax payers just want a service, investors want a return for their money. What do you suppose is cheaper, paying a contractor to do a job (NHS) or paying the same contractor(NHS) to pay other contractors(BUPA, Optegra, Virgin) to do the jobs?

Eventually the narrative will be, 'Why pay the NHS to pay these other companies, why not let the public pay their own medical insurance and shop around. Then we can look forward to the poor not affording health insurance and falling by the wayside. I'm all for free markets, but somethings were never meant to be all about profit and the cheapest costs.
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