Hazel Grove News

A Suburb in Stockport

10 10 / 10 from 9 Reviews

Eu referendum.

<< 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >>
 
sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
13th May 2016 at 7:19AM
Serenity: you deserve an answer from me about your concerns.
1] Turkey. Turkey can only join the EU if the preconditions are met, and all EU countries agree. That includes the UK - if we are still in! The 2011 Act will require a referendum before the accession treaty is signed - so we (along with Cyprus, Greece and France and Austria etc) can use our veto. If we are not in we cannot veto! Turkey may get access for visa free travel (3 months) in Schengen, but not visa free travel to Britain.
2] NHS. The major pressure on the NHS arises from the aging population, bed blocking, and the increasing costs of medical treatment. I could go into this in great detail, but I repeat that EU migrants have little impact and may be beneficial. The solution here is to solve the social care problem.
3] Schools. There is a pressure on primary school places at present. This is mainly caused by an increase in UK birthrate, plus internal migration of UK citizens. However, the authorities have been poor at planning. Once a baby is born, it is known that a school place will be needed 5 years later. Very few new schools need to be built, simply allow class sizes to rise from 30 to 35 to provide 16% more places.
4] Housing. WE need more affordable houses - I agree with that. I do not agree that migrants are the cause of the shortage. There are more groups needing housing because of the change in family structures over the past thirty years, couple that with a lack of brown field sites, a refusal to allow any building on thhe green belt, recaltricant planners, shortage of building skills and you have most of the reason. This is the most difficult to solve, but if every migrant EU vanished overnight it would still be there.
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
13th May 2016 at 8:06AM, Edit: 13th May 2016 at 8:16AM by Serenity
Goggins Wrote:

This has already been explained to you: EU migrants tend to be economically active - paying taxes - but not requiring much in the way of health care or schools because they tend to be young and childless.
If you feel the NHS is crumbling and schools bursting then perhaps, rather than blaming foreigners, you should consider the role that the UK state has in planning the provision of services. For example, the UK birth rate has gone up and down over the last 70 years and schools have had to cope. If we can't cope now then perhaps the blame lies closer to home.


I'm not against social migration Goggings but we need controlled migration, A system such as Australia that enables us to invite people into our country to work and live. We need a system that allows for us to be able to accommodate them,home them and feed them. And unfortunately the system that we have at the moment were people are coming to Britian and living in tents and sleeping rough on the street isn't that type of system, and not all the people coming from abroad are young,fit and able as there "tends"to be the elderly and sick coming here as well.

At the moment we've got no way of knowing how we're going to cope in the future but it's obvious for whatever reason that we're not coping now.

We're just not able to build houses quick enough, or open up more places in our schools and hospitals to accommodate the number of people who want to come to Britian.

And that's now so what about in another few years when Turkey also want to join and Turkish people want to come here looking for a better way of life as well.

I'm not blaming these people for wanting to come to Britian for a better way of life. But this type of uncontrolled migration just isn't helping anyone. The only people it helps in Britian are employers looking for cheap willing labour.

I know that the current job market is such that there are numbers of low paid (sessional or otherwise)jobs that are vacant. Jobs that employers want to fill by employing migrants who are glad of a chance to earn a better wage and improve their standard of living.


And I also know that there are a lots of British people out there who have now become part of the unemployment statistics forced to claim benifits though no fault of their own, who want to work but say that jobs are becoming increasingly harder to get.

So the numbers don't add up. We need more immigration to fill jobs we don't have??....or is it we have the jobs but not the workforce??....OR perhaps we have the jobs but not the right type of workforce that employers like. Cheap. ..willing...and able.

Whatever the answer is it would now seem that british employers would much prefer employees to come from aboard.

And so the drain on the our economy continues (and their's in the long term because they're losing there work force)....as more British unemployed are left unemployed and on benifits...more migrant workers come to fill the jobs that employers are saying that work shy britians don't want to fill. AnD so it all continues. ..

I suppose thats the real problem that the goverment should be tackling. How to motivate british people back into wanting to work.

But on the other hand I can quite understand why an employer would think that a willing hard working migrant would be a better option than someone who's been on benifits for years and is reluctant to want to work.

But by continuing to fill the gap with people from abroad isn't solving the long term issue of unemployment in Britian. It's a short term solution for a long term problem. But that's another complicated long debate..

So back to the EU by leaving I feel that we will be able to invite who we want, when we want. If we need a hundred workers from abroad to help run say our hotels, then we'll be able to invite a hundred workers from abroad. Instead of what we have now which is an uncontolled, unstablable a system that invites hundreds and not merely a hundred that is required.

David Cameron has done his best to change the EUs way of thinking but it didn't work, it's obvious that some things within it are set in stone and not up for a Democratic discussion, Freedom of movement being one.

Freedom to me implies being able to make choices and not have them forced upon you. And if you feel perhaps later on that the choice wasn't the right one or the circumstances have since changed, then having the freedom to change your mind without being penalised.should be considered.

Whilst we remain within the EU this type of democratic freedom is not available. So where's the Freedom. ..

So the choice is....do we continue within the EU, not being able to invite who we want to live and work here, and when we want them to come. Continuing to have an open door policy of immigration for all those people within the EU who want to come. With no set figures and no checks,

Personally I'd like to know who,and how many,and if jobs are available to allow for the British infustration to be able to cope. Instead of what we have now ...which is little more than uncontrolled immigration on a free for all basis.

The only way I see immigration improving is to leave the EU and to adopt an Australian type immigration policy that invites people to work and live here once they meet our requirements. But unfortunately whilst we remain within the EU that's not going to be possible.

I don't want to stop migration because that helps our country grow and prosper and gives britian the diversity that enriches our society. But immigration within the EU is uncontrollable and unstablable,

But like Sam and TwistedBanana have said there are good things that being part of the EU has introduced. But for me they were just lost leaders(like the bargain price item to get you to shop there, but then you find that everything else is just to expensive). Well over the years we've bought into the EU way of selling us the dream andd now we are paying the true more costly price with uncontrolled immigration.

This way works for Australia and they trade freely and prosper as a nation. I'm sure that we could adopt a similar policy, and trade more freely with countries that are not within the EU.

https://www.migrationexpert.com.au/work_visa/working_holiday_visa/



0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
13th May 2016 at 8:57AM
sam39 Wrote:

Serenity: you deserve an answer from me about your concerns.
1] Turkey. Turkey can only join the EU if the preconditions are met, and all EU countries agree. That includes the UK - if we are still in! The 2011 Act will require a referendum before the accession treaty is signed - so we (along with Cyprus, Greece and France and Austria etc) can use our veto. If we are not in we cannot veto! Turkey may get access for visa free travel (3 months) in Schengen, but not visa free travel to Britain.
2] NHS. The major pressure on the NHS arises from the aging population, bed blocking, and the increasing costs of medical treatment. I could go into this in great detail, but I repeat that EU migrants have little impact and may be beneficial. The solution here is to solve the social care problem.
3] Schools. There is a pressure on primary school places at present. This is mainly caused by an increase in UK birthrate, plus internal migration of UK citizens. However, the authorities have been poor at planning. Once a baby is born, it is known that a school place will be needed 5 years later. Very few new schools need to be built, simply allow class sizes to rise from 30 to 35 to provide 16% more places.
4] Housing. WE need more affordable houses - I agree with that. I do not agree that migrants are the cause of the shortage. There are more groups needing housing because of the change in family structures over the past thirty years, couple that with a lack of brown field sites, a refusal to allow any building on thhe green belt, recaltricant planners, shortage of building skills and you have most of the reason. This is the most difficult to solve, but if every migrant EU vanished overnight it would still be there.


1. I'm sorry Sam but I'm not convinced that Turkey wouldn't be voted in. The EU system of democratic voting has been found of late to be lacking in transparency.

And as for your other points Sam your quite right they do all need sorting out but continuing with uncontolled immigration is not the answer. That's like opening your front door when you only have a 1 bedroomed flat and saying to 30 people come in I can't feed you and I've not enough rooms for you all to sleep in but your all welcome to come in and sleep on the floor until I can buy a big detached house to put you all in. Nice in principle but unstablable in the long term sam.

Before you can even attempt to solve the social issues you've spoken about Sam you need to know how many people are coming to Britian and when they are coming. It's just common sense. Without some form of controlled immigration we're just guessing at any future figures. And without that we can't plan for the future.

As for building on our Green belt😧😧😧😧to accomodate future housing. Not a way I would like to see Britian going Sam. Affordable housing built on greenbelt land Sam in your dreams. It might eventually happen but they'll be homes for the wealthy to live in not for our workers or workers from abroad.

And as for shortage of skills Sam...why...because we're losing our industry and skilled work force to foreign companies abroad. Which then means that we've got to import the skills back into britian from abroad in the way of builders to build our new homes. Flipping ridiculous.

I know that it's hard to say how long a person will live or how many children a family might have, but immigration is the one area that we can and should be having more control over. And within the EU we just cant.

0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
13th May 2016 at 9:27AM
Serenity. OK you and I will never agree. But could I ask you how many EU migrant workers/families you have noticed in Hazel Grove?
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
13th May 2016 at 9:56AM, Edit: 13th May 2016 at 10:00AM by Serenity
sam39 Wrote:

Serenity. OK you and I will never agree. But could I ask you how many EU migrant workers/families you have noticed in Hazel Grove?


Sorry Sam but I don't know what that's got to do with leaving the EU debate.

But its probably a question that Oliver might be better equipt to answer.

However if you're trying to say that there's not a problem with immigration in Britain just because you cant see EU workers/families living in Hazel Grove, then I think that you're being a bit blinkered.
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Eu referendum.
13th May 2016 at 11:06AM
Sam for someone who is apparently in their 70s, you have approached this discussion with a rather childish tone.

What difference does it make to this discussion how many EU migrants live in Hazel Grove or how it impacts my daily life?

Moreover, you ask for evidence that the EU is looking at closer integration = you can see it in the statements of EU politicians (even our own)and in the experiences we have all had over the decades with the EU and those that support it in this country.
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
TwistedBanana
Townsperson

TwistedBanana
Re: Eu referendum.
13th May 2016 at 11:12AM
OliverJohnstone Wrote:

Sam for someone who is apparently in their 70s, you have approached this discussion with a rather childish tone.

What difference does it make to this discussion how many EU migrants live in Hazel Grove or how it impacts my daily life?

Moreover, you ask for evidence that the EU is looking at closer integration = you can see it in the statements of EU politicians (even our own)and in the experiences we have all had over the decades with the EU and those that support it in this country.


To be honest Oliver, I think Sam as been very compendious in his discussions on this topic. I think he has acquitted himself admirably offering one side of the argument, an Serenity has done the same for the other side, I have enjoyed watching - better than most TV debates to be honest
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
13th May 2016 at 11:17AM
My point was this: you are very concerned about the impact of EU immgration on infrastructure. I am not sure why you are worried, I personally do not see any infrastructure impact in Hazel Grove, nor in Stockport, nor in Greater Manchester. It would appear that you worry about something happening somewhere else in the UK. I know that the impact of agricultural migration in Lincolnshire has caused problems there, perhaps there is a problem in Kent, and London obviously is a magnet. However, I know we have EU migrants working in Hazel Grove. I have seen them in shops, bars and restaurants. There are not many and they are young and working. I judge matters by what information I can collect: from newspapers, TV, radio, I read official reports and those of independent experts - but I also make use of my own eyes and experience. I do not see a migrant problem. So, what is the problem?
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
13th May 2016 at 11:45AM
I shall ignore your silly remark about the tone of my comments.

So far you have not answered any of my questions with a factual answer. You keep making generalised statements about what will happen without a shred of evidence.
I will try again on integration. It is inevitable that the EZ will integrate further. That will be necessary to allow for fiscal transfers, some degree of harmonisation of taxation, and harmonisation of social security. The UK is not in the EZ, and along with Denmark has a permanent opt out from the Euro. We will not join Schengen, there will be no Euro army, and in any case 'closer union' will not apply to the UK.
Of course, there are some continentals and UK politicians who would support even more integration. But they come up against the veto which can be exercised by any one of the countries. I get the feeling that you do not trust the UK government and Parliament - if we remain, some future government might agree to join the EuroZone perhaps? But the Leavers want the UK government and Parliament to be sovereign - which seems a bit strange if you do not trust them.
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Eu referendum.
13th May 2016 at 4:40PM
Sam - it is comments that you have made like "Wow, Oliver are you getting rattled?" and "No answer? " just seems to be unnecessarily catty. However your choice.

So you accept there are issues with immigration in London and South. What about Birmingham? Manchester? The North East?
All of these areas have issued with immigration from EU and non EU countries - just because you do not see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you speak to people in some areas of Manchester, the story will be different.

Turning to the issue of sovereignty, I don't want the UK parliament or the Government to give away sovereignty and power to the European Union. It makes me as a citizen less powerful. I fail to see where the logical inconsistency is in wanting the UK to retain its sovereignty, whether it is given voluntarily by Parliament or forcibly taken by an external entity.

If we assume your scenario was true, that we stayed in and Britain did not integrate further into the European Union over the next 20 years, it would be completely at odds with the experiences we have had thus far with Europe. Many European politicians consider our referendum lock and our opt-outs a bit of a joke. They no one way or the other that we will be led down the path either way.

0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
<< 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >>
 

Part of..

Related Discussions

No related discussions found.

Tagged With..

No tags added