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Eu referendum.

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Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
7th May 2016 at 6:16AM, Edit: 7th May 2016 at 6:20AM by Serenity
Goggins Wrote:

Pedestrian Wrote:

Excuse me for butting in here Goggins but you asked Serenity " If we had zero immigration would that definitely fix the problem?". When has anyone ever suggested "Zero immigration"?
Nobody has but that's part of the problem - phrases such as "defend out borders" or "control our own borders" (which, as a non-Schengen area country we already do) are used without any explanation of what this means. I have asked "In what way do you want them protected? Is it about stopping everyone from moving here to live? To holiday here?" already but, so far, nobody's explained it to me - could you?


What do you say to the two previous Stukaville posting Goggins. Do you still want to remain within EU after you've seen them?
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Goggins
Re: Eu referendum.
7th May 2016 at 8:42PM
It's perfectly valid to like or dislike the details of the trade negotiations between us and the US and there are plenty of people vehemently opposed to it who have been campaigning to have it scrapped or reworded since long before there was a hint of a UK referendum and even longer before the issue was hijacked by those wanting to leave the EU. But opposition to a particular policy seems a poor reason for leaving the EU, in the same way that it would be preposterous to suggest that Stockport should leave the UK if it transpired that most people here didn't like, for example, Jermy Hunt's running of the NHS.
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stukaville
Villager

stukaville
Re: Eu referendum.
8th May 2016 at 12:35AM
Ofcourse it's perfectly valid to like ot dislike the details of TTIP. What is not valid is the Eu trying to keep the details of the agreement hidden from the public. There is a conspiracy of silence. If the Eu is acting in the best interests of it citizens, why the secrecy? Any entity which rejects transparency in favour of secrecy is not to be trusted. No one is 'hijacking' the issue, it's a valid concern. TTIP is more than a 'policy', it is a thread to democracy. One of the main aims of TTIP is the introduction of Investor-State Dispute Settlements (ISDS), which allow companies to sue governments if those governments’ policies cause a loss of profits. In effect it means unelected transnational corporations can dictate the policies of democratically elected governments. I would vote against TTIP if I could, but like you I can't. We DO NOT have a say because the Eu is doing it all in secret. TTIP should be debated in Parliament as a matter of urgency.
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TwistedBanana
Townsperson

TwistedBanana
Re: Eu referendum.
10th May 2016 at 5:28PM
There are so many reasons being listed to stay, there are as many being listed to leave.

The simple crux of the matter is that no one really has a bleedin clue what will happen if we leave, not any of us on here, not the politicians driving the debate, not the business leaders taking either side. Every argument made seems to have an equally compelling counter argument.

I have always been pro EU but even taking that away, my general attitude towards this would be to stick with the devil you know.

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OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Eu referendum.
10th May 2016 at 6:09PM
The idea of better the devil you know is seriously flawed. The economic picture for the Eurozone is shaky at best.

1. The Greek sovereign debt crisis is coming back again as they are due to fork out another 300bn or so over the summer. There are issues over pension and tax reform rising.

2. Deutsche Bank (a behemoth of the German financial sector) is experiencing serious difficulties which if prolonged and severe enough would have profound consequences for the European economy.


Turning to the idea of not having a clue what happens if we leave - it is an unfair expectation of the leave campaign in many ways. Those who want to leave are not an entity like a political party that advocates one specific policy alternative. Those who want to leave are heterogeneous and have varying opinions. The stay campaign are similarly as divided with what happens in Europe if we choose to remain, but they aren't expecting to draw up a 5 year plan.

I have my view on what should and could happen after a Brexit but it is not universal across the Leave campaign. Neither is the idea of a post-remain victory EU the same across every EU supporter.




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TwistedBanana
Townsperson

TwistedBanana
Re: Eu referendum.
10th May 2016 at 8:28PM
I sell German financial software from a UK based company into the Euro market.

Beleive me, i am much happier staying in :D
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Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
11th May 2016 at 5:20AM, Edit: 11th May 2016 at 5:54AM by Serenity
Most countries in the world trade with the EU perfectly well and they don’t need to allow free movement of people.

If the UK votes to leave the EU which i hope they do I feel that it will help Britian regain control of immigration from EU states. We can then go on to be more selective in who we allow into the country. I dont want to see immigration stop but I want to see the UK being able to return to pre EU times when people came because they were wanted not because they wanted to come, and as such I feel that the UK citizens would be a lot more welcoming knowing that.

The UK would then be able to effectively plan ahead and use its resources to create a social infrastructure knowing its population. At the moment how can we do this when we don’t know how many people will need school places ,hospital beds or even seats on the buses.

Up to now I've not been impressed by the amount of scaremongering in the British press etc,its like the uk will fall off the ends of the earth if they decide to leave, To me it's no more than pure bully boy tactics. Not a fair and open debate that we were promised.

I personally think that trade will go on as usual and the uk will have billions more to spend on healthcare/roads/schools etc, instead of it wasting money being tied to an outdated,undemocratic fat cat system that's not fit for the purpose it was intended for.

Is it really fair to say that the EU freedom of movement is working when there are daily headlines such as this. THE number of Romanians sleeping rough on the streets of London has almost DOUBLED in a year, as officials blamed migrants for the escalating homelessness problem.

Is really fair to those people and to us when there's simply not the right infustructure and available housing support put into place to cope as a nation with the freedom of movement regulations that the EU has imposed. Freedom at what cost...sleeping on the streets, no homes,no care,no jobs...

And then you go on and read the headlines

Germany Made PM Ditch Migrant Brake:

It all tells me that the EU just isn't working for Britain and that we can't really say what we want anymore without being overruled ...

EU set up for trade fine perhaps it helps the big companies but definitely not the small ones, but freedom of movement no I doesn't work. But unfortunately you can't have one without the other.

So for me it's definitely a positive leave the EU vote,
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TwistedBanana
Townsperson

TwistedBanana
Re: Eu referendum.
11th May 2016 at 5:56AM
Had all the stuff listed below been discredited?

I dont know, seems a very long list for it all to be wrong

What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.


All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.


It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.
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Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
11th May 2016 at 7:20AM, Edit: 11th May 2016 at 7:36AM by Serenity
It reads like what did the Romans do for us....

A force for good, yes sounds great but how do we get cha ge when it's obvious that the EU is not for changing. David Camerons futile attempt has proven that.

All that you have said might be true but the same could be said for britian before we entered into the EU.

What about immigration within the EU. Someone hit the nail on the head this morning saying that ...is the EU not turning Britian into a foreign country. I must admit I'm being to feel like that. Iso that wrong of me.

David Cameron has called Nigeria and Afghanistan 'fantastically corrupt' so how can you believe what he says. These are countries that we give half a billion pounds a year to and there knowingly openly corrupt. How do we know if at all our money is going to people who need it when the country is being run by a KNOWN corrupt leadership.
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TwistedBanana
Townsperson

TwistedBanana
Re: Eu referendum.
11th May 2016 at 7:38AM
I think Serenity that you are proving my earlier point that there are so many arguments and counter arguments that we dont stand a cat in hells chance of making an informed decision.

I will make my decision based on how i know it will affect me in a business sense. Moving out of the EU Zone will have a drastic affect on the size of the market i sell in to, I will no longer be able to compete with local suppliers of the same product in EU conuntries, i will have to limit my market to the UK,

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