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Eu referendum.

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Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
28th April 2016 at 9:21AM, Edit: 28th April 2016 at 9:22AM by Serenity
Goggins Wrote:

Serenity Wrote:

So what's left stay and get more of what we have now...unable to decide on our own laws,..
Serenity Wrote:

I don't want to see Britain absorbed into the EU so much that we end up with no rights left at all
What laws would you like to enact but believe that we can't? What rights do you fear losing?


I'm not one for statistics as they all differ so much, see below. I feel that this is going to be a vote made from the heart.


10 Myths

FIRST MYTH: BRITAIN WOULD LOSE THREE MILLION JOBS IF WE LEFT THE EU

– If Britain withdrew from the EU it would preserve the benefits of trade with the EU by imposing a UK/EU Free Trade Agreement.

– The EU sells a lot more to us than we sell to them. In 2014 there was a trade deficit of over £50bn, with a current account deficit of nearly £100 billion. It seems unlikely that the EU would seek to disrupt a trade which is so beneficial to itself.

– Moreover, the Lisbon Treaty stipulates that the EU must make a trade agreement with a country which leaves the EU.

– World Trade Organization (WTO) rules lay down basic rules for international trade by which both the EU and UK are obliged to abide. These alone would guarantee the trade upon which most of those 3 million jobs rely.

SECOND MYTH: BRITAIN WILL BE EXCLUDED FROM TRADE WITH THE EU BY TARIFF BARRIERS

-The EU has free trade agreements with over 50 countries to overcome such tariffs, and is currently negotiating a number of other agreements.

-EU now exempts services and many goods from duties anyway. In 2009 UK charged customs duty of just 1.76% on non-EU imports. This is so low that the EU Common Market is basically redundant as a customs union with tariff walls

THIRD MYTH: BRITAIN CANNOT SURVIVE ECONOMICALLY OUTSIDE THE EU IN A WORLD OF TRADING BLOCS

-Major economies eg. Japan (one of the world’s largest) are not in a trading bloc.

-The EU is not the place where most economic growth is occurring. The EU’s share of world GDP is forecast to decline to 22% in 2025, down from 37% in 1973.

-Norway and Switzerland are not in the EU, yet they export far more per capita to the EU than the UK does; this suggests that EU membership is not a prerequisite for a healthy trading relationship.

-Furthermore, Britain’s best trading relationships are generally not within the EU, but outside, i.e. with countries such as the USA and Switzerland.

-The largest investor in the UK is not even an EU country, but the US

FOURTH MYTH: THE EU IS MOVING TOWARDS THE UK’S POSITION ON CUTTING REGULATION AND BUREAUCRACy

-EU directives are subject to a ‘rachet’ effect – i.e. once in place they are highly unlikely to be reformed or repealed.

-Less than 15% of Britain’s GDP represents trade with the EU yet Brussels regulations afflict 100% of our economy (the 5th largest in the world)

-Over 70% of the UK’s GDP is generated within the UK, but still subject to EU law.

-In 2006 it was estimated that EU over-regulation costs 600bn Euros across the EU each year.

-In 2010, Open Europe estimated EU regulation had cost Britain £124 billion since 1998.

-Whilst red tape savings are not direct cash savings, deregulation would result in a true ‘bonfire of regulations’ that could fund either sizeable tax cuts or additional public spending.

FIFTH MYTH: IF WE LEAVE, BRITAIN WILL HAVE TO PAY BILLIONS TO THE EU AND IMPLEMENT ALL ITS REGULATIONS WITHOUT HAVING A SAY

-We have very little say within the EU, and would have far more leverage outside EU as an independent sovereign nation and the world’s 5th largest economy.

-The UK currently has only 8.4% of voting power ‘say’ in the EU, and the Lisbon Treaty ensured the loss of Britain’s veto in many more policy areas.

-Britain’s 73 MEPs are a minority within the 751 in the European Parliament.

-With further enlargement (Croatia, Turkey’s 79 million citizens), British influence would be further watered down.

-As for continuing contributions by an independent Britain, Swiss and Norwegian examples show that the UK would achieve substantial net savings.

SWISS CASE STUDY:

Official Swiss government figures conclude that through their trade agreements with the EU, the Swiss pay the EU under 600 million Swiss Francs a year, but enjoy virtually free access to the EU market. The Swiss have estimated that full EU membership would cost Switzerland net payments of 3.4 billion Swiss francs a year.

NORWAY CASE STUDY:

Norway only had to make relatively few changes to its laws to make its products eligible for the EU marketplace. In 2009, the Norwegian Mission to the EU estimated that Norway’s total financial contribution linked to their EEA (European Economic Area) agreement is some 340 mn Euros a years, of which some 110mn Euros are contributions related to the participation in various EU programmes. However, this is a fraction of the gross annual cost that Britain must pay for EU membership which is now £18.4bn, or £51mn a day.

SIXTH MYTH: THE EU HAVE BROUGHT PEACE TO THE EUROPEAN CONTINENT
The Reality:
-Even now, the EU is only 28 nations of the 47 European nations listed as national members of the Council of Europe.
-The forerunner to the EU, the Common Market, didn’t come into existence until 1958, and then only with 6 nations, and yet there was no war between European countries from 1945 to 1956 (except the Hungarian revolution). Whilst peaceful international cooperation is welcomed at all levels, to say the EU is the sole guarantor of peace is an extreme exaggeration that is dishonest in its application.

-It is NATO, founded in 1949 and dominated by the USA, and not the EU, that has actually kept the peace in Europe, together with parliamentary democracy. Both of which are being undermined by the EU.

-The former German President Herzog wrote a few years ago that ‘the question has to be raised of whether Germany can still unreservedly be called a parliamentary democracy’. This was owing to the number of German laws emanating from the EU- which he assessed at some 84%.

-The break up of Yugoslavia was a major test of the EU’s ability to keep the peace. It was EU interference that helped trigger a major civil war and its dithering contributed to deaths of some 100,000 people. It was only decisive action by the US/NATO forces that stopped the violence. Peace was established by the US-brokered Dayton Agreement.

SEVENTH MYTH: THE EU HAS A POSITIVE IMPACT ON THE BRITISH ECONOMY

-British industries such as fishing, farming, postal services and manufacturing have already been devastated by Britain’s membership of the EU.

-EU membership costs UK billions of pounds and large numbers of lost jobs thanks to unnecessary and excessive red tape, substantial membership and aid contributions, inflated consumer prices and other associated costs.

– The Common Fisheries Policy has cost British coastal communities 115,000 jobs (Lee Rotherham, 10 years on)

EIGHTH MYTH: BRITAIN WILL LOSE VITAL FOREIGN INVESTMENT AS A CONSEQUENCE OF LEAVING THE EU

-In a 2010 survey on UK’s attractiveness to foreign investors, Ernst and Young found Britain remained the number one Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) destination in Europe owing largely to the City of London and the UK’s close corporate relationship with the US. EU membership was not mentioned at all in their table of key investment factors, which were (in order of importance): UK culture and values and the English language; telecommunications infrastructure; quality of life; stable social environment, and transport and logistics infrastructure.

-In any case, open access to the EU market would continue through a Free Trade Agreement in the manner of Switzerland and Norway whilst the UK would gain from higher growth, less regulation, more public spending and/or lower taxes and more suitable trade deals

NINTH MYTH: BRITAIN WILL LOSE ALL INFLUENCE IN THE WORLD BY BEING OUTSIDE THE EU

-Britain has a substantial ‘portfolio of power’ in its own right, which includes membership of the G20 and G8 Nations, a permanent seat on the UN Security Council (one of only 5 members) and seats on the International Monetary Fund Board of Governors and World Trade Organisation.

-The UK also lies at heart of the Commonwealth of 53 nations. Moreover, London is the financial capital of the world and Britain has the sixth largest economy. The UK is also in the top ten manufacturing nations in the world.

-Far from increasing British influence in the world, the EU is undermining UK influence. The EU is demanding there is a single voice for the EU in the UN and in the IMF. The EU has also made the British economy and City of London less competitive through overregulation, and negotiates more protectionist and less effective trade deals on behalf of the UK.

-The European External Action Service (EEAS) and its EU ‘Foreign Minister’ Federica Mogherini are undermining national diplomatic representation and the furtherance of British political and commercial interests through British embassies, which are being closed or downsized around the world.

-The Commonwealth is increasingly discriminated against by the EU policy on visas, so that non-EU Commonwealth citizens face having to obtain visas whilst citizens of even new EU entrants have automatic entry. Historic Commonwealth bonds with Britain are being lost.

TENTH MYTH: LEGALLY, BRITAIN CANNOT LEAVE THE EU

-Technically, Britain could leave the EU in a single day. Legislatively, this would be achieved simply by repealing the European Communities Act 1972 and its attendant Amendment Acts through a single clause Bill passing through Westminster.

-If the British people voted to leave in an In/Out referendum or by voting in a party with EU withdrawal on its manifesto, Parliament would have to respect the will of the British people and there would be no justification for delay or obstruction in either House.

-However, the process of setting up a replacement UK/EU Free Trade Agreement will take longer, though there would be no need for time-consuming negotiation of tariff reductions if the UK/EU Free Trade Agreement merely replicated existing EU trade arrangements.

-In addition, even the Lisbon Treaty’s Article 50 enshrines the right of member states to leave the Union, albeit in an unattractive manner. The same article requires the EU to seek a free trade deal with a member which leaves. Greenland established a precedent for a sovereign nation by leaving the EEC in 1985, and is prospering well outside of it. With Westminster still sovereign (for the moment), it is the British Parliament who will decide how and when Britain
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Goggins
Re: Eu referendum.
28th April 2016 at 5:25PM
Can I take from all that copy/paste that there are no laws you would like to enact but can't and that there are no rights that you fear you will lose?
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Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
28th April 2016 at 8:19PM, Edit: 28th April 2016 at 8:21PM by Serenity
Goggins Wrote:

Can I take from all that copy/paste that there are no laws you would like to enact but can't and that there are no rights that you fear you will lose?


Most statistical information is second hand be it cut and paste or otherwise. But all the points are none the less relevant and need to be raised and considered as well. It's not just a leave or else campaign.

This is why I would have liked to have seen more information from the goverment outlining the merits of leaving the EU as well as for staying.

This is what I find totally frustrating at the moment that the EU debate seems to be very one sided in favour of leaving.

I'm not saying that staying within the EU isn't the right thing to do but I would like to see a lot more of an equal debate going on around it.

At the moment I feel that everytime you switch the tv on David Cameron getting another buddy to back up his argument to stay in, and that it's a done decision to stay.

This is a decision that will effect my children and their children so I'm trying to vote by trying to carefully consider all the information I can get my hands on.

But as you can appreciate it's all very conflicting. Which is why I said it will probably end up being a vote made from the heart.

I can appreciate that things like kèeping down pollution by the EU imposing targets might be seen as a way that the EU have protected Britain and improved the environment. But if these targets are being ignoring(at a cost) then these regulations are not really working. But without them what have we got I ask.

Then then there's the big question of protecting our borders. How do we do that whilst remaining within the EU which will make it virtually impossible.

I would have liked to have seen David Cameron come back from Brussels with lots of his proposed EU changes being approved but he didn't, which lead me to believe that the EU machine is not for changing. And that in the future there will be no turning back and that we will eventuLly become a small clog within an ever growing EU machine.
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slim
Townsperson

slim
Re: Eu referendum.
28th April 2016 at 9:15PM
Statistics can be made to read any way you like for me it's a case of do you think we're better in or out ?
Nobody knows what the outcome will be if we leave any one saying they do is full of BS we know how it's going if we stay in .
So are you for maintaining the same way it is now or taking a chance and seeing if we can do better on our own ?
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Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
29th April 2016 at 7:22AM, Edit: 29th April 2016 at 8:01AM by Serenity
slim Wrote:

Statistics can be made to read any way you like for me it's a case of do you think we're better in or out ?
Nobody knows what the outcome will be if we leave any one saying they do is full of BS we know how it's going if we stay in .
So are you for maintaining the same way it is now or taking a chance and seeing if we can do better on our own ?


At the moment slim I'm for leaving the EU. Basically because David Cameron wasn't able to get the changes he wanted for Britian. But I never thought he would or could. Once EU rules and regulations are made Britian can't then cherry pick what they want to abide by. It also showed me that Britian unfortunately is losing its voice within the EU. I almost felt sorry for David Cameron as he seemed to not be taken seriously.

So in my opinion the future within the EU looks set in stone with not much room for change. Be whatever goverment is in, or how many MEPS we have.

I have total faith that Britian can thrive and actually prosper outside of the EU, regardless of the statistics, if it was believed in once again and given the chance.
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sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
29th April 2016 at 6:49PM
You realise that anyone who wishes to visit the EU after Brexit border controls are in place will need a visa. So if you like a holiday in Spain you will need a visa. If, by chance, you marry a German girl you will need a spousal visa and £18.5K per annum to bring her to the UK. Any business that uses seasonal labour from the EU will require a visa to employ them (Dominic Raab, Conservative MP, Sunday Politics, April 24th).
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Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
29th April 2016 at 7:24PM, Edit: 29th April 2016 at 7:25PM by Serenity
So whats the alternative Sam to continue with the migrant crisis that is ripping the EU apart anyway, forcing member states to reintroduce ad hoc border controls.

Let alone the future prospect of visa-free travel for nearly 80 million Turks if we remain in the EU.
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Goggins
Re: Eu referendum.
29th April 2016 at 7:26PM
Serenity Wrote:

Then then there's the big question of protecting our borders. How do we do that whilst remaining within the EU which will make it virtually impossible.
In what way do you want them protected? Is it about stopping everyone from moving here to live? To holiday here?
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sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
29th April 2016 at 7:44PM
Turkey will never become a member of the EU. Greece, Cyprus and France will veto it (as could the UK). Turks may get visa free travel to the Schengen Area, but that is not visa free travel to the UK. The position of Turks in Schengen would be no different whether the Uk is in or out of the EU - they would still need a visa to enter the UK. If we were out of the EU today, the refugee turmoil would still be the same, and our position would still be the same - we only admit those refugees we wish to admit. We have relatively free access to the UK for EU citizens. By the same token, UK citizens have relatively free access to the EU - for holidays or business, or to live. If we impose tougher border controls on EU citizens, they will impose reciprocal controls on us, it will have an impact on us. That is something we must understand - border controls are not cost free.
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slim
Townsperson

slim
Re: Eu referendum.
30th April 2016 at 10:02AM
If we leave it's going to be a long costly difficult road a head while we try to negotiate trade agreements with various country's .
Also the agreements we make with EU country's will inevitably include free passage for there citizens in to the uk .
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