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Eu referendum.

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sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
25th April 2016 at 2:23PM
As a politician, you should know that there is no way that we can be forced to join a EU army, nor the Euro, nor Schengen. The EU does not have that power of enforcement. Furthermore, the 2011 Act requires that a referendum be held before there is any significant transfer of powers to the EU. It is inevitable that the eurozone becomes politically and fiscally closer. But we are not in the EZ, we have a permanent opt out.
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OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Eu referendum.
26th April 2016 at 9:44AM
Sam as a politician I know that things are a lot less simple than they seem.

The Lisbon Treaty acted as an enabling treaty which throws into question whether referendum locks would actually have any teeth ie would a significant change actually required a new treaty. Furthermore, even if we did have a referendum, look at how the campaign is stacked against dissenting voices now. Referenda are superficial and are at the mercy of who holds the money and big endorsers.

Even if we discount the above, the history of the EU does not support the idea of a benevolent democracy. Look at what happened in Ireland where they had a 2nd referendum to get a different result. France and the Netherlands where the EU Constitution was rejected in a referendum but they just introduced it anyway under the guise of the Lisbon Treaty.

This referendum is about the security of our parliamentary democracy for the next 20 years or more. The EU project is an agenda which its architects both in the UK and abroad are determined to see through with or without democratic consent of the people of member states.

If we vote to remain, we sign up to another Maastricht or Lisbon or something worse which further disencranchises us and our parliament in favour of Brussels.
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sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
26th April 2016 at 11:05AM
Oliver: There are two general passerelle clauses in the TEU and the TFEU: one relates to changes to the areas of QMV, the other to changes to the particular legislative procedures to be used. There are some further passerelle clauses that refer to specific policy areas, but they are quite specific - like cross border family law matters. Concentrating on the general clauses, if a proposal is made by the Council of Ministers to use the passerelle clause, then that proposal must be passed by an absolute majority of the European Parliament and referred to each of the 28 NATIONAL parliaments. If the proposal is not ratified by all the national parliaments within 6 months, the proposal falls. Consequently, the UK parliament has an absolute veto on passerelle proposals. In addition, the 2011 Act specifically provides for a referendum for treaty changes and for passerelle proposals. These matters are entirely under the control of the UK parliament.
I do not like referenda either. Leaving aside the issues you raise, a referendum has no legislative power - it is a consultation - and yet a Government cannot ignore it. Take the present referendum. The Government's official position is Remain. If Leave wins, the Government will feel bound to implement a policy it disagrees with. Furthemore, how will it get the necessary legislation through Parliament if the majority of MPs (most Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, and a number of Tories) are against Leaving? And, of course, it would also need to get through the Lords. If Leave wins there will be a major constitutional crisis, which could only be resolved by another general election and the election of a Government with a majority for Leave.
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Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
26th April 2016 at 11:24AM
sam39 Wrote:

Oliver: There are two general passerelle clauses in the TEU and the TFEU: one relates to changes to the areas of QMV, the other to changes to the particular legislative procedures to be used. There are some further passerelle clauses that refer to specific policy areas, but they are quite specific - like cross border family law matters. Concentrating on the general clauses, if a proposal is made by the Council of Ministers to use the passerelle clause, then that proposal must be passed by an absolute majority of the European Parliament and referred to each of the 28 NATIONAL parliaments. If the proposal is not ratified by all the national parliaments within 6 months, the proposal falls. Consequently, the UK parliament has an absolute veto on passerelle proposals. In addition, the 2011 Act specifically provides for a referendum for treaty changes and for passerelle proposals. These matters are entirely under the control of the UK parliament.
I do not like referenda either. Leaving aside the issues you raise, a referendum has no legislative power - it is a consultation - and yet a Government cannot ignore it. Take the present referendum. The Government's official position is Remain. If Leave wins, the Government will feel bound to implement a policy it disagrees with. Furthemore, how will it get the necessary legislation through Parliament if the majority of MPs (most Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, and a number of Tories) are against Leaving? And, of course, it would also need to get through the Lords. If Leave wins there will be a major constitutional crisis, which could only be resolved by another general election and the election of a Government with a majority for Leave.


So what is the point then?

So are you saying that in simply terms, if a majority of the public vote to leave the EU, it would not be possible to leave until another general election took place to vote for a party that was in favour of leaving the EU such as UKIP.
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OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Eu referendum.
26th April 2016 at 11:46AM
I don't think it will cause quite the constitutional catastrophe you believe it will. I agree the Government should have taken a neutral position but I still think our institutions of government are more resilient than you make them out to be. It's also a slippery slope argument which isn't really backed up with any kind of hard evidence.

Now back to the debate itself, only someone with a naive sense of history could believe that the measures you have outlined are serious checks and balances. The European Parliament is essentially redundant as it is largely stacked with members who are fanatical about the European project. Furthermore, the democratic deficit in electing faceless party list members to join larger voting blocs is enormous.

Then you come to national parliaments - with a nominally sceptical party in government (as we have now) this kind of makes sense. However, what if another Tony Blair or Gordon Brown comes along? A party in power that is willing to sacrifice public opinion in favour of greater power to Brussels.

Remember this is a constitutional question ie we must decide what the framework will be irrespective of whether it is a Europhile government as well as a Eurosceptic government. I believe the threat of what the wider EU agenda means for this country is so great that we cannot leave it to a future government to decide.



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sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
26th April 2016 at 12:05PM
Serenity: Before Referenda were introduced into British politics, all decisions were taken by elected Governments
after a general election. It was the GE which gave the authority. The classic case was in 1911 when the Liberal Government forced a GE on the powers of the House of Lords. They won a large majority and thus had the mandate and MPs to curb the powers of the Lords. Although a referendum result gives a mandate - it does not give the power, that is, the votes of MPs. The Tories have an overall majority of 12. If enough Tory MPs vote against, or abstain, the Government does not have the power to pass the necessary legislation to get us out of the EU. In 1975, Wilson said that he would do everything in his power to implement the results of the referendum but he could not guarantee it - that would depend on Parliament. Now, of course, MPs (of all parties) might feel honour bound to follow the results of the referendum; then again they might not.
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sam39
Villager

sam39
Re: Eu referendum.
26th April 2016 at 12:31PM
Oliver: Come, come, I will not accuse you of being naive, but every step that the UK has taken with regard to the EU, and our part in it, has been taken by British Governments. In fact it was Mrs Thatcher who signed the Single European Act, and Mr Major who got the Maastricht Treaty through Parliament. I seem to recall both were Conservatives. Whether we integrate further into the EU, if we remain in, will depend upon the UK Government of the day. Now, it seems, you do not trust the people to vote for the correct form of UK Government: Tut, Tut, and I thought you were a democrat. The 2011 Act is a substantial check on the actions of a future UK Government whatever its political philosophy. As for the European Parliament elections, the mode of election is for national governments to decide. Our present system of party lists (the D'Hondt system) is very poor, but we could switch to another system provided it was proportionate. STV for example. That is up to the Government to do if it feels strongly about it.
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Sevenmilesout
Townsperson

Sevenmilesout
Re: Eu referendum.
27th April 2016 at 12:00AM
Great post Sam, very interesting.

A few important points.

1. Leave n Lose have NO forward plan. Just jump into the deep, black pit, naked, blindfolded, with your fingers crossed.

2. The EU core value of Freedom of Movement is almost certain to continue. A) As part of the price of accessing the Single Market, along with obligatory trade regs. & legislation. The UK cannot afford to lose access. B) To protect 2 million Brits, who live and/or work in Europe, having made their decision to migrate on the back of our EU membership.

3. The continual lies from Leave n Lose, leave them with zero credibility. For example, they will tell you that the membership cost is £55 million a day. IT ISN'T. The net cost is LESS THAN A THIRD OF THAT (Official treasury figures 2015)

4. The UK's largest trading partner is the US, on the back of our EU membership. As much as you may not like it, Obama was telling the truth. The UK as a solus country will be at the back of the queue. His words came as no surprise as in the last few weeks, both US & Chinese trade officials have stated that they are NOT interested in any large trade deals with the UK, outside the EU. The EU, as the World's largest Single Market is the cherry.

5. All the financial experts, the CBI, which represents 200,000 small, medium & large UK business is backing STRONGER IN along with 80% of it's membership, with just 5% wanting an exit.

6. 95% of the Unions are backing STRONGER IN, including the NHS unions & the TUC.

7. A vote for Leave n Lose gives the Tories a open ticket to do exactly as they wish for the next 4 years at the expense of ordinary people. The EU protects ordinary people & is an emergency brake on the UK government. so necessary since the G.E.

8. The UK (foreign owned) car industry exports 80% of it's product, in the main to Europe and to a lessor extent, the US. BMW, Jaguar Land Rover, Bentley & Nissan have written to each of their employees, detailing the threat of an exit. Airbus UK, wholly owned by Airbus France has also written the same type of letter to it's 10,000 employees.

9. Personalities should not really make a difference, but they do. Remember well, the faces of Leave n Lose. Duncan-Smith, a vile & evil man, Farage a compulsive liar & abject conman, Gove, a disastrous ex-Education Minister, Johnson, a buffoon and the man who burned £50 notes in front of homeless people, Galloway,Grayling, Whittingdale, Bone. Google them all, they all have form or notoriety for one reason or another. Most of them have a desire to privatise the NHS & as a further negative, Leave.eu is funded by a tax avoidance company in Gibraltar.

10. In the last four months, the Pound has dropped 20 points against the Euro. It regained 3 points this week as a result of positive STRONGER IN polls. ALL the currency experts have predicted that it will drop a further 20% in the event of an exit. This will mean an inevitable hike in the cost of living, for those least able to afford it as the UK relies heavily on food imports from the EU. Absolutely crystal clear that the Pound will buy less.

11. The threat of an exit has seen a huge drop in new jobs being advertised. For the three months to Feb 2016, unemployment increased by twenty-one thousand. It will increase again by 15,000, following BHS & Austin Reed going into liquidation. The writing is on the wall.

If you want to check whether a statement is a lie, myth, misinformation or a just a completely stupid, Boris Johnson false claim you can visit this excellent web site.

http://infacts.org/mythbust/






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Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Eu referendum.
27th April 2016 at 9:23AM, Edit: 27th April 2016 at 9:30AM by Serenity
Glass half full half empty. Leaving the EU has never been done before, so who really knows what the outcome will be.

All the points that you made seven miles to stay and Oliver made to leave are very valid. None of which I was really aware of.

So are you really saying seven miles that if we leave we've no real protection from this present government and we'll be back of the que for trading abroad.

Well as for protection from the present goverment I can't honestly say that I've been that impressed with whatever goverment is in power so far, and I've seen many come and go. So if we do leave we'd just have to elect another one. No doubt labour would probably then say that we've been in favour of leaving the EU all along, so vote for us, and so it goes on and on.

I'm not against staying in the EU but I don't see any possibility for change, David Cameron proved that in his failed attempt to make change this time.

So what's left stay and get more of what we have now...unable to decide on our own laws,.. immigration that we can't control...industries going to the wall......doctors not been treated fairly and with dignity. ..cut back after cut back....and so the list goes on and on.

So whilst all your reasons to stay might be right seven miles, for myself I don't want to see Britain absorbed into the EU so much that we end up with no rights left at all, no matter what goverment is in power. And only left with EU laws and regulations.

That's not what Britian is all about....   
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Goggins
Re: Eu referendum.
27th April 2016 at 5:47PM
Serenity Wrote:

So what's left stay and get more of what we have now...unable to decide on our own laws,..
Serenity Wrote:

I don't want to see Britain absorbed into the EU so much that we end up with no rights left at all
What laws would you like to enact but believe that we can't? What rights do you fear losing?
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