Hazel Grove News

A Suburb in Stockport

10 10 / 10 from 9 Reviews

Disgusted with the Tories.

<< 1 2 3 ... 21 22 23 24 25 ... 27 28 29 >>
 
OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Disgusted with the Tories.
1st April 2016 at 4:05PM
Serenity - it is not a particularly nice situation to be in but there is a brutal reality here.

Some politicians are claiming the Government should be an "investor of last resort" for the steel industry. Any bailout however, would not be an investment. It would prop up the industry for a short period of time - at great expense to the tax payer with little return, financial or otherwise.
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
TwistedBanana
Townsperson

TwistedBanana
Re: Disgusted with the Tories.
1st April 2016 at 4:27PM
Serenity, it is the usual short term view of Tory governments. We can look at the miners in the 80s as a typical example of government looking at the bottom line for a quick fix without looking at the true landed cost and the social cost.

Back then pits were closed as it was "more economical" to buy predominately Polish coal, when actually the price per tonne on a true landed cost that took into logistics and transportation was actually a few pence dearer.

But the real cost was something far worse.

The cost of putting tens of thousands of men into the benefit system for the long term, there was no other work for in many of their counties, never mind their villages and towns. The impact this had on them was devastating, their sense of well being and belonging torn away, their sense of worth gone. The bitterness that creates spread through to the next generation and then the next.

Then there was the local industries that relied on those mines, the corner shop, the pub, the local engineering firms, taxis, public transport etc etc, all their trade was gone, no one had money to spend.

So a few pence a tun was saved, yet communities were destroyed and embittered, billions was dealt out in benefits over many years

For the mining industry of the 80s, now read the short and mid term future of the steel industry.

We are going to see a massive increase in the welfare bill, we are going to see steel industry dependant businesses destroyed, adding more to the welfare bill, we will see the moral fabric of communities torn to shreds and eventually impact on the bill to society for crime etc.

And as you rightly point out, once the Chinese have the monopoly, we will be paying far more for steel

But who gives a shit eh, as long as we don't have to invest in the industry and bolster it through a difficult time, after all they aren't a feckin bank, its only steel
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
TwistedBanana
Townsperson

TwistedBanana
Re: Disgusted with the Tories.
1st April 2016 at 4:38PM
In fact, why dont the Government reinvest some of the 300 billion they have received back from RBS and LLoyds (the money the Labour party lent to them, that has been paid back under the Conservative Government) this was taxpayers money, I am a tax payer and I would be more than happy to see it reinvested to bolster this industry through this period and to stop the long term devastation.

You have my permission to use my little bit :)
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Disgusted with the Tories.
1st April 2016 at 4:43PM
Twisted - there are several things wrong with what you have said:

1. It is not just Chinese steel causing this issue. Cheap European steel is also to blame.

2. The idea that helping the steel industry through "a difficult time" will secure its future is pure fantasy. We cannot compete with China and Europe for a multitude of reasons. Events unfolding at the moment are only the climax of years, possibly decades of consistent decline in the industry.

3. The banks are a completely ridiculous comparison. Banks whether you like it or not are the instruments through which businesses and wealth grows. They are intimately connected to every facet of the economy - which means if you let them go down - it causes a domino effect on many different industries and sectors. We aren't talking the shops and pubs in Port Talbot but whole sectors of the UK and the world economy. Banks are systemically important, the UK steel industry is not.

0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
TwistedBanana
Townsperson

TwistedBanana
Re: Disgusted with the Tories.
1st April 2016 at 5:14PM
I pointed to the monies received back from the bank rescue that took place under the Labour party, the money that has come back in to the coffers of the Tory party - I asked you to use it support the industry and invest in it or to use that money to invest in the people of the affected area.

I use a very simplistic argument, what you are saying to me is that there is no hope so no point investing - so the answer surely has to be invest in the people - i pointed out your parties previous inability or lack of desire to do so. North Yorkshire, Tyneside, The Valleys, ete etc all stand testament to your parties total lack of foresight or care

I totally understand that the bank bail out was a necessity, for the very reasons you state, we all know the conversation that took place between the Head of RBS and Gordon Brown, the line that went something like "we shut that doors in four hours, what you going to do about it"

However you have failed in any way to reassure me that your party will in anyway mop up the mess left by the closure, will anyway invest in the future of the affected communities. I suspect they will be left to rot - lets face it, they were never going to vote blue anyway.

Just another point, your comment "the UK steel industry is not systemically important", please remember the people working in it are, maybe not as systemically embedded into the the fabric of the financial world but they are systemically embedded in the fabric of society.

I understand my desire for an inclusive society differs from you idealogical desire for an exclusive society, a look after number one society, but i don't think you are as shallow as that last statement made you sound
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Disgusted with the Tories.
1st April 2016 at 5:30PM
I do not have the power to do anything about Port Talbot, let's make that clear. Why cant the government use the £300 billion - I suspect that is not just sat around in an account somewhere and a portion will have been used to pay off the debt we accrued to bail them out.

Twisted, aside from the political bluster about what all nasty Tories believe, you raise an important issue about the community that will suffer and I agree that issue requires a response from the Government. However, the immediate issue is what do you about the steel industry. In my view, a public bailout would be disastrous policy.

On the comment about systemically important industries, your response is a bit immature. It's quite clear I am referring in pure economic terms to an industry and not to those who work in it. I can value the contribution and the worth of people in many different jobs but that doesn't mean that I believe their industry as crucial to whether or not you or I have a roof over our heads or a job to go to in the morning.
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
TwistedBanana
Townsperson

TwistedBanana
Re: Disgusted with the Tories.
1st April 2016 at 5:44PM
This is where we differ, you constantly look at the "industry", you don't seem to understand that the industry isn't just a material thing, the people are the industry, they are the foremost important aspect of this whole debate. If we dont look after the people with a bailout, we have to look after the people with investment. Which ever is the most cost effective option

I refer to the "nasty" tories (your word not mine) as I remember only to well their previous with these situations
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
Serenity
Citizen

Serenity
Re: Disgusted with the Tories.
1st April 2016 at 5:49PM, Edit: 2nd April 2016 at 6:00AM by Serenity
[QUOTE=OliverJohnstone]Serenity - it is not a particularly nice situation to be in but there is a brutal reality here.

Some politicians are claiming the Government should be an "investor of last resort" for the steel industry. Any bailout however, would not be an investment. It would prop up the industry for a short period of time - at great expense to the tax payer with little return, financial or otherwise.[/QUOTE

I just don't understand why we couldn't have been more competitive with our steel marketing before the so called rot set in.

I don't profess to know the answers but letting all our skilled workforce go to the wall doesn't seem like good business sense for the future to me Oliver. That's my real concern.

Years ago Britain was traditionally a nation that could provide quality products made by time served skilled craftsmen.

I'm concearned for the future and that eventually Britain will have nothing left to trade with and become a nation with such a depleted skilled workforce that there will be no real skills left to work with and to pass down to future generations.

Over the years one by one all our industries that help support our country seem to be collapsing and being replaced with nothing.whilst other countries seem to be maintaining and supporting their skilled workforce, even make them stronger.

So i suppose that's the real investment that people are looking for here Oliver. An investment in maintaining our future bank of skilled workforce because without them what would a nation be.

As I've said I'm not politically motivated but seeing all these people who have taken years and years to develop skills (that will be lost forever) being thrown on the scrap heap seems like a crime in more ways than one.

To me it's just playing right into other countries hands and making Britain dependant on them in the future. Which in turn gives them hold of the purse strings, which can't be good for for Britain.

Isn't there someway that the workers themselves could invest back into the steel industry (via shares)to keep the companies going. Or is it just a case of other countries paying their workers less so they are able to charge less for their steel. If that's the case then our minimum wage increase looks like we'll be losing more than we'll gain in future.

I don't honesty no what the solution is but I've visited areas where there used to be thriving industries and its sad to see lost communities left with no hope for the future struggling to exist.

But how do you give these people their life back Oliver once their way of having a life through hard work has gone. What do you replace sound working ethics and pride in the community with ...years of being on the dole.. I'm really sure that in balance it's got to be better for the government to work towards some solution to save the steel industry.

I know there's a big argument going on internally and externally about how to balance the books whilst not keeping failing businesses going.

But most people would agree that manufacturing steel should be part of our bread and butter industry because it's something that supports Britain in more ways than one, and as such it should not be allowed to become yet another ghost of the past and lost forever along with the valuable skills it has to offer.


0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
Mozza
Townsperson

Mozza
Re: Disgusted with the Tories.
2nd April 2016 at 9:30AM
It's always can't do this, can't do that with the Tories, unless it comes to the rich, then by Christ they'll do it.

Cut service..pay back the debt (only..that's not happening)
Can't do anything about Chinese steel (only..others have, and they try not to give a load of work to China)

The Canadians are showing that with a little more care of people, it works out pretty well.
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
OliverJohnstone
Hazel Grove Councillor

OliverJohnstone
Re: Disgusted with the Tories.
3rd April 2016 at 10:11AM
Serenity - no one is saying that we shouldn't have done something a very long time ago but I think to attempt anything now would be to shut the stable door once the horse has bolted. It's important to understand the distinction here between investment and bailout. What politicians in Labour and the Liberal Democrats are asking for is a bailout not an investment (despite misleadingly calling it an investment). As far as I am aware, no one has put forward a compelling case for investing in the steel industry to transform it.

Mozza - again you are a victim of basing your opinions on headlines. It is not just Chinese steel that is causing this impact. I guess that cheap European steel is inconvenient for a predominantly Europhillic media at the moment.

Bottom line, Britain may have been a country where we once manufactured significantly but prior to that we were an agrarian peasant economy. Why would we expect constant change and evolution to stop at where we were 100 years ago?

Britain is a leader in the world in many sectors, just perhaps not the traditional industries anymore (although our omnipotence as an industrial nation was very short-lived in an actual fact). Financial services, engineering, aviation etc are all strong industries for us where British companies excel.
0 Likes 0 Dislikes Reply Reply Quote Quote Report Report  
<< 1 2 3 ... 21 22 23 24 25 ... 27 28 29 >>
 

Part of..

Related Discussions

No related discussions found.

Tagged With..

No tags added